INTEROFFICE COMMUNICATION
FROM: Satan
TO: Minions
RE: The United States of America, Planet Earth
It looks like we’re finally making some real progress in the United States of America. Naturally, as your Supreme Leader, I take credit for the brilliant idea. But it was our diligent force of minions working tirelessly there, who carried out My plan so well. Indeed, using the Christians against themselves, without even one of them suspecting our ultimate goal, was a group effort of pure genius. So, I’m going to extend cautious congratulations to My force of followers who are working there.
You’ve done an excellent job – on the one hand you’ve calmed the suspicions of those annoying Americans who ever diligently fight for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, by not interfering in the citizens’ decision to vote in an African-American to the presidency. By allowing them the celebration of that one historical triumph against racism, they won’t be as upset, or nearly as suspicious, about what we’ve managed to pull off right under their noses.
But we mustn’t rest on our laurels. The Constitution in this particular country was so intelligently designed, that, though we’ve managed to drill some holes in it, it’s still holding up. The fact that it had “separation of church and state” as one of its major clauses has been problematic for us for more than two centuries. For the last 232 years, The United States has been the one of the few spots on earth where every religious denomination has lived peacefully side by side. A synagogue could be built as easily as a church, a mosque never attacked, because the law of the land was that all citizens of all the separate religions were allowed to worship their individual gods in any way they saw fit, with no interference from the government! And, in upholding that part of the Constitution, the government was not permitted to limit any citizen‘s civil rights based on their religious beliefs. People, all people, could enjoy their religious preferences and worship in peace and harmony!
It was disgusting, and very, very frustrating for Me. Those who’ve been with Me through the centuries can attest to the fact that our mission is most successful when a country‘s government is of a specific, ruling religion, and that ruling religion takes action against other minor religions that try to exist in the same area.
Oh, the bloodshed I enjoy when people try to rise up against religious discrimination, when one religion despises another! No other type of war we’ve created on earth has created more slaughter, more sin, than a religious war. But even those who are new to the forces of evil, can see how well we’ve done in the Middle East (re: Earth) All that human blood sacrificed in the names of all the different gods’ advances our cause greatly. It weakens the good will in men, makes them believe they are superior to one another, and ultimately brings down the very gods those men and women claim to worship. What a perfect scheme has religious war been for us! But with a government that protects all denominations, our work in the U.S. had not been easy.
Until we infiltrated the Mormon church and beguiled the Catholics and other Christian denominations into thinking that the Mormons want to work in harmony with them.
That one really made Me chuckle.
Because, thanks to My work done centuries ago, we’ve already convinced the Mormons that they are the only ones going to heaven. They truly believe they are the only chosen, therefore they won’t be in harmony with the other Christian denominations for very long, that’s for sure, because all the other denominations feel exactly the same. Their smug religious superiority will crack their veneer of righteousness. But now that they’ve come together this once and have been able to obtain the votes of so many denominations to pass the country’s first religious law, we here in Hell have finally witnessed that the United States’ Constitution is no longer impervious to current popular belief. Civil liberties are up for sale to those who can obtain the most votes. We have proven that with the passage of this new law.
This is enormous for our cause.
And relatively soon, maybe in five years, maybe in ten, if the Christians continue to believe they have upheld their religion freedoms by passing a religious law (don’t you love the irony?) the Mormons will start thinking about additional religious laws they’d like to have passed. And why shouldn’t they, since this foray into political control was so successful?
Once that happens, with luck, timing and some clever minions in the right churches, (which reminds Me–I thought we fired Ted Haggart? Oh, well — I’ll save that for another memo) some of those laws the Mormons will want enacted will anger some of the other religious denominations.
Like the Jews. They’ve proven volatile enough to get riled very quickly. If we get the right people in with the Mormons and some real troublemakers in with the Jews, there will be a religious uprising of one religious group against another in the United States, just as we’ve been able to create religious uprisings in other countries, as fast as you can say “JOSEPH-VEE-ESS-ABRAHAM.”
And all because we were able to convince Mormons, who were at one time in the past, as ostracized as gays are today, that gay marriage was threat to them.
I’m still laughing.
And the best part about this? None of the religious groups have any clue that they’ve helped to destroy their own religious freedom in the United States, one of the few places on earth where they were free to worship as equals. In fact, they’re so blinded to it, that even if they found this memo, they’d have no idea what in Hell I was talking about.
Congratulations, My most worshipful, hardworking minions. If you pull this off in Australia next, I think a bonus will be in order.
Satan
Oy! I heard someone say that as soon as you have the majority deciding the rights of the minority, you are in trouble. Thing is, that is the very nature of democracy.
How true..
[isto é bom]
Hmmm. Yes it is. Except that in this case of Prop 8 we're taling about civil rights which in a democracy are supposed to be equal for all.
Now it's being prtested like mad here.. I wish people had been a bit more attentive to it before the election. I guess our focus was on the presidential campaign.
Thanks.( I like the photograph.) ; )
And scary….
That too….
Canada… my beautiful cultural mosaic. I'm just going to take a second to say that it's already been pulled off here. We have marriage for same sex partners. We have common law for same sex partners. Nobody even thinks or talks about it any more because it's simply a fact of how we do things here. It's old news.. yes indeed. In this regard we are truly far more progressive.
see now the quote below really makes me angry. USA is not the only spot on earth where religions have been free – remember Australia? New Zealand? We exist, we are free, and in fact we have a damn sight better social justice and equity than USA. This stuff really makes me angry
: For the last 232 years, The United States has been the one spot on earth where every religious denomination
Very good point, FD. And I knew that, too. I 'll change it. I wrote this very fast because I'm so tired from overwork lately, haven't written a blog in two weeks and was overdue.It should have said, "one of the few spots on earth"
Thanks for poiinting it out…My apologies…
I think Canada is more progressive in many regards. But, you just can't trust that tricky Satan. Who knows what he;ll come up with next?
Ummm…the Jews think they are the chosen ones…..the catholics think if you are not baptized you end up in hell or best case..limbo for all eternity, some jehovas' witnesses believe only 144,000 of them are going to heaven and it depends on how many people you convert….so…yeah…there's quite a FEW people/religions that believe they are the only right ones.
But I don't believe the US is any different from most other human enclaves on your planet. It was not recognised as "allowable" in law for example to have a civil union between say 3 guys and 6 women. Your country, like all the others on Earth, has unfortunately always mixed religious dogma (stupid emotional human opinions) with the science of justice (which is actually a science and precise and can be objectively considered).
The other intelligent races of the Milky way have their view-screens tuned onto this planet as the Galaxy's direct reality tv-show equivalent of Big Brother on crack. Some more evolved intelligent races give the death penalty to anyone actually tuning in. Most just have an embargo on our planet with clear signs to avoid this cess-pit of corruptive stupidity.
Personally I think humans will make fine pet-slaves once properly trained..
Dear Mrs. Davis,
I have to admit, I am deeply hurt and saddened by your last post "Message from Satan."
Dear Mrs. Davis,
I have to admit, I am deeply hurt and saddened by your last post "Message from Satan." However, you are absolutely correct…that is EXACTLY what you have created. A message from Satan. So, while you pretend that Satan is overwhelmingly happy with the Mormons for causing the gay marriage vote in California to fail, he is probably even MORE happy with you for posting in a way that separates Mormons from the Christian religion and causes other denominations to have hatred for our quiet and respectful religion.
Here is what your post failed to include, so maybe people who read it will have a chance to think for themselves. There are only about 770,000 Mormons residing in California, which account for about 2% of the Californian population. So, I find it pretty extreme that you have singled us out and thank you very much for thinking that a measly 2% can win the majority opinion of all of you Californian "Free Thinkers."
This is a post that I thought spells the whole thing out rather well, as I am an LDS resident of Colorado and did not participate in CONCURING gay marriage?
"I am LDS, a Latter Day Saint, (Mormon is a nickname and incorrect just as an FYI) We as members were only 'encouraged' to support Yes on 8, as it is forbidden in the Bible. The SAME King James Bible that ALL Christians read, whether you're Baptist, LDS, Protestant, all denominations, ect. It is no different for us to obey this law as with any other laws that were written- treat your body as a temple- thus we do not drink, smoke or engage in any other harmful substances. We do not believe that these laws are laid down by our leaders, but by our Lord.
'Mormons' were not the ONLY church supporting this campaign. Where was the passion for NO on 8 while it was time to campaign? I saw street corner after street corner day after day leading up to the election with dozens of people campaigning with signs for Yes on 8, and I only saw 1 group ONE day with No on 8 signs.
Since we only make up 2% of the Californian population I guess we should take it as a compliment that the rest of the world thinks we are SO powerful that we alone actually moved mountains… hmmm
Anyhow, when our church donate MILLIONS of dollars and hundreds of volunteers to help when there is a crisis- ANYWHERE around the world such as the Tsunami, earthquakes, hurricanes, the CALIFORNIA WILDFIRES etc- nothing is said. That is fine, but if the church as a whole decides we will do our best to HONOR the words of the Lord, and we are under attack."
So, Mrs. Davis. Especially because I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past, and I usually find them very clever and enjoyable. I urge you strongly to turn your anger with your state elsewhere. I believe that our Religion has been persecuted enough for swaying the vote 2%, and you are not allowing us to worship peacefully, as you so jokingly mocked in your blog.
And, on a more personal note. Let me straighten this out as well. WE DO NOT THINK THAT WE ARE THE ONLY ONES GETTING INTO HEAVEN!!! I think that our religious views on this are perhaps the most compassionate, loving, and open. Not only do we NOT think everyone else is going to hell, we believe that if you do not have a chance on this earth to except Christ as your redeemer, Lord, and Savior, that you will have the chance to learn about his gospel after death, and still be saved into the loving arms of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I love so many good Christian people who are not my LDS denomination, and tons of just Good People who are NOT Christian. And the thought of them going anywhere else but God’s Kingdom after death is outrageous!
I also love the handful of my gay friends I have, including some who ARE LDS, and was saddened that they can have their rights to enjoy the institution of belonging to somebody, controlled by the STATE not the CHURCH. There are plenty of non-religious people that do not support gay rights, I am sure that they also voted this November. My PERSONAL belief, if I am allowed to have one even though I am LDS…is that while God may not recognize the Sanctity of Gay Marriage, WE as MAN cannot make that call. I see no problem with it, but do not support nor condone the idea. It is not my call to make, then again, it is not the call of all these politics either, but it sure as heck was on the ballot.
I am sorry this post is so long, I just thought that I should stand up for my convictions, and my religious freedom. I still have a lot of respect for you, I will continue to support your blog. But, I hope that your heart is softened and that you will not continue to poison others with your strong words.
In peace, and God be with you.
Dear Kristen,
Thank you for the honor of your heartfelt, yet polite and brave comment. I am on my way ou tthe door for a very important meeting and will not return till five o'clock California time, At that time I will respond to your comment with the thought and care it deserves. I just wanted to let you know this, so you don't think I've ignored you.
Patricia
Ha… yeah, that kinda' reminds me of Dana Carvey's Church Lady skit… "Could it be…. SATAN?!!?!" 🙂
The framers of the constitution set up the judicial branch in order to avoid the "tyranny of the majority" for this reason. They foresaw that it might just suit a majority of the people to allow "separate but equal" opportunities i.e. Jim Crow South.
This is a civil rights issue and will probably have to be decided by the Supreme Court. Maybe that is why it passed, because the courts will have to allow civil rights to all, not just the tyrannical majority of voters on November 4, 2008.
Dear Kristen,
I am going to try and answer your comment point by point, but first, I have to tell you to please try to have an open mind as you read what I am taking the time to write here. I respect you enough that I'm going to do that, but if you view what I say through hurt and anger, you will again miss the points I'm trying to make. In fact, you're right in your assumption that Satan is probably happy about this post because it's already caused a problem between you and me.
posting in a way that separates Mormons from the Christian religion and causes other denominations to have hatred for our quiet and respectful religion.
My purpose in this post is not to single out Mormons. All organised religions believe that they are, in fact, the only religion to follow.Don't believe me? Then, ask yourself this: What would LDS parents say to their LDS child if he or she informed them they wanted to marry a Catholic? Or even, a Jew? Would they approve? And if they did approve, would other LDS members approve? Would that mixed religioun couple be able to marry in an LDS church?
You know the answer, and you know it's the same answer no matter what religion.
There are only about 770,000 Mormons residing in California, which account for about 2% of the Californian population. So, I find it pretty extreme that you have singled us out and thank you very much for thinking that a measly 2% can win the majority opinion of all of you Californian "Free Thinkers."
2% is correct, but the money to get Prop 8 on the ballot and to campaign came from out of state, from many religions, with a larger percentage of donations coming from out-of-state Mormon churches. The reason for that was that God forbid- our "Californianfree thinking" of "equal rights for all" might spread to other states and eventually the entire country. So the churches, all 'gently and respectfully' thought it best to nip that idea in the bud, didn't they?
We as members were only 'encouraged' to support Yes on 8, as it is forbidden in the Bible. We do not believe that these laws are laid down by our leaders, but by our Lord.
You can believe whatever you wish. Other churches can believe whatever they wish. But no church has the right to impose their beliefs on any state.Not California, nor any other.
Where was the passion for NO on 8 while it was time to campaign? I saw street corner after street corner day after day leading up to the election with dozens of people campaigning with signs for Yes on 8, and I only saw 1 group ONE day with No on 8 signs.
Didn't you say you live in Colorado? If that's the case, there may have been more VOTE Yes on 8 there, but here in California, those who opposed Prop 8 raised far more money to oppose it and protested it vehemently. However we were trying to fight FEAR and when people are afraid, they can't see what's right and fair. And that fear comes from the lies that supporters of Prop 8 told in their campaign. A campaign backed by churches.
Anyhow, when our church donate MILLIONS of dollars and hundreds of volunteers to help when there is a crisis- ANYWHERE around the world such as the Tsunami, earthquakes, hurricanes, the CALIFORNIA WILDFIRES etc- nothing is said. That is fine, but if the church as a whole decides we will do our best to HONOR the words of the Lord, and we are under attack."
Is it not part of your religion to do good works? Does the Lord expect that you expect to be thanked for them or to just do them? You are not under attack for honoring the words of your Lord, you are under attack for trying to change the Constitution of California.
you are not allowing us to worship peacefully, as you so jokingly mocked in your blog.
But that was not a joke and that is exactly what I do want – I want you and every other United States citizen to be able to worship peacefully, with no inteference from other religious groups or non-religious groups. That's my point- I don't think I can make it any clearer than that. By putting religious laws into our Constitution, we will have religious wars. You might think you are protecting your rights to worship as you see fit by putting this law in place, but you are doing just the opposite.
WE DO NOT THINK THAT WE ARE THE ONLY ONES GETTING INTO HEAVEN!!! we believe that if you do not have a chance on this earth to except Christ as your redeemer, Lord, and Savior, that you will have the chance to learn about his gospel after death, and still be saved into the loving arms of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
So, you believe we have to believe in Jesus Christ in order to get into heaven? And that's not exclusive? And let's be honest, you may have the lovely belief that all denominations get their chance to get into heaven, but that is not what your church teaches nor what any church teaches. I went to religious intstructions and I've read about many religions, and have witnessed how they ostracise people of other faiths and denominations. My own mother was not allowed to receive communion with my son, her grandson in a Greek Orthodox Church because she was Catholic. So she was Christian, but just the 'wrong kind 'of Christian. Please be honest with yourself about this. Every religion does it.
also love the handful of my gay friends I have, including some who ARE LDS, and was saddened that they can have their rights to enjoy the institution of belonging to somebody, controlled by the STATE not the CHURCH.
I'm not clear what you're saying here. Are you saying that LDS gays want their rights controlled by thier church? Well, they are controlled by thier church and that's their choice. Do they also want the rights of non-LDS gays controlled by their church?
There are plenty of non-religious people that do not support gay rights, I am sure that they also voted this November.
Yep, they sure did, and if they did not have a religious reason to vote for Prop 8 then they voted for it because they are BIGOTS, plain and simple. I addressed bigotry in a previous post.
It is not my call to make, then again, it is not the call of all these politics either, but it sure as heck was on the ballot.
It was on the ballot because religious groups made sure to put it there.
I would love it if you would go back and read my post again.My point is a very simple one. Separation of church and state PROTECTS people's rights to worship as they see fit, including Mormons. A religious law serves no one accept someone who would like to see people protesting and fighting with each other over whether that religious law is one they wish or do not wish to follow. Who likes fighting? Who likes bloodshed? A bad person. So, see who 'signed ' my post. This is a SATIRE.
You know, Kristen, I should have edited this post more carefully. Other mistakes were pointed out to me. But it is never my intention to deliberately hurt or insult any specific someone.If, as you say, you have been reading my posts, you should know that. It's a matter of trust really. However, when I do hurt someone, I do want it pointed out to me, only not in a way that implies that it was my intention to be hurtful. Then, you don't know me.
But, may God be with you, too.
Thank you for this intelligent observation. I appreciate it.
I used to love that Church Lady skit. Dana Carvey is hilariously insane.
Thank you, GG and for stopping by.
It was not recognised as "allowable" in law for example to have a civil union between say 3 guys and 6 women.
Is it allowable on Mars for women to have more than one husband? Because I think that might be an idea a few Earth women could get behind, provided she doesn't actually have to make meals for all of them.; )
But seriously, you bring up a good point. Polygamy, I mean. That probably won't be addressed in my lifetime.
"I believe that our Religion has been persecuted enough for swaying the
vote 2%, and you are not allowing us to worship peacefully, as you so
jokingly mocked in your blog."Kristen, your cult raised millions of dollars nationwide to heavily promote a deceitful campaign in California to remove existing civil rights from a minority and you're whining persecution?!? The wilful ignorance is galling.From the front page of today's New York Times… Mormons made this happen and now you own it, like it or not.Prop 8 will be found unconstitutional and overturned by the Court. However, the bad pr for Mormons who supported this bigotry is just beginning. In this respect, Ms. Davis' satanic satire is dead on.
I am posting this comment just to say that I commend you, Patricia, and all of the responders for their very intelligent and calm exchange of opinions. Every time I read something on your blog that inspires others to share their opposing opinion, in such intelligent ways, it gives me hope that there are still people who think before they speak/act. I do not make very many, if any, of those amazing exchange of comments, but I do come back time and again to read the new replies. With each new reply I learn something. Thanks Patricia and all the responders for sharing your well thought out statements and opinions.
Madonna,
You are horribley disrespectful by calling my religion a "CULT."
Polygamy… yup… the next frontier. In the end, I think it's going to be simple. Religious beliefs will have no place in human jurisdiction, and laws will be made to protect ourselves from damaging humanity here on earth… not in someone else's belief of the afterlife. We aren't allowed to marry our siblings because incest is bad news for our progeny- humanity found that out the hard way. Homosexuality and possibly any other human union will be accounted for when we finally get over the church-State barrier and discover what flaws those unions have (if any) on society. As humans do, sometimes we have to try things the hard way by allowing them and discovering what does and doesn't work. I've always maintained that it's unadulterated self righteous indignation that makes people think their organised religion should impose the law of the land to everyone else regardless whether their law attempts to control something for ludicrous reasons. Speaking of Mars… it would be so nice to live in a place where Religious advocates would abide by their own laws on their own, and keep their hands off the equality of all citizens.
Thanks, Madonna. You did alot of research and put a lot of thought into this comment. I appreciate it, as much as I appreciate how great you look at your age. You've always been a role model for me in that endeavour. You're such a hard worker, so amazingly fiesty, and you are in better shape now than you were in the eighties. And…I still love your music! I'm really honored that you stopped by my blog1 ; )
Dear Mrs. Davis,
Before I start, my reply was not supposed to rile up any feelings about # 8, I hope I have not stepped on anyone’s toes. It was simply me trying to stand up for a religion that I felt was unjustly accused of causing the thing to pass. In my own opinion, it is a civil case, it shouldn’t have been on the ballot to begin with, and the supreme court should handle it. Personally, I would have voted to give them their rights, who am I to say they can’t marry? Let them do it, if it is wrong in the end, let God sort it out. Now that that is out of the way, I feel compelled to clear up misunderstandings that seem to have been caused. I hope we can leave this as friends, I do adore your satirical view points, this one just hit close to home.
The problem with writing is that no matter which emotions you are trying to exhibit…they can often times be misconstrued as something else. I am going to try my best to make a clear point of replying to you without emotional context getting in the way. I am hurt by something’s, but your opinions are no different than the opinions of most people who do not understand what the LDS church is all about. So, with that, please be assured that I am not angry with you in anyway.
I regard my religion to be full of loving and accepting people, so, point # 1 I suppose:
You may have the lovely belief that all denominations get their chance to get into heaven, but that is not what your church teaches nor what any church teaches. I went to religious intstructions and I've read about many religions, and have witnessed how they ostracize people of other faiths and denominations. My own mother was not allowed to receive communion with my son, her grandson in a Greek Orthodox Church because she was Catholic. So she was Christian, but just the 'wrong kind 'of Christian. Please be honest with yourself about this. Every religion does it.
This would be the first HUGE misconception, and it hits close to home, because it is the Primary Reason of why I joined the LDS church. J I know that I can only tell you what my church is like, and you may not believe me, but I assure you I am being 100% honest with you. I have also been to many differing Christian religion services, and yes, they do ostracize other similar faiths (most frequently Mormons actually,) but hey, they are in the business of keeping customers. It does not bode well for a self-funded paid clergy church to be accepting of other religions, because if it lets its members wander around and find a better “fit” for themselves, that preacher is going to lose cold hard cash, and HIS church will suffer. That is the wonderful thing about the LDS church, members pay tithing and such and it all goes to the main church head quarters and is allocated appropriately through out the organization. Paid to – crisis projects, food centers, buildings, temples, missions, and many other good places. The one place it never goes is into the hands of clergy, member teachers, and leaders of the organization. Our church is the largest debt free organization in the world. But all church leadership positions are unpaid, and done out of service and love. Everybody who has a position in the church has a real job outside of church to keep their livelihood. I have NEVER been to an LDS service that ostracizes other religions. This is my favorite part about being LDS, and this is the main reason for my convert friends too. Our church has too much to focus on than bringing other religions down. I am very sorry that your mother was not allowed to receive communion with her grandson, that is very very wrong and unfortunate. But, last week my Grandfather came to watch his little granddaughter in her first primary program, and he took communion with us without a second look from anyone. (This man has not stepped foot into a church for years!) And, our church does believe and teach that EVERYONE, not just Christians will most likely make it to Heaven. This is from the official church website: lds.org
“Salvation from the Second Death. The scriptures sometimes speak of salvation from the second death. The second death is the final spiritual death—being cut off from righteousness and denied a place in any kingdom of glory. This second death will not come until the Final Judgment, and it will come to only a few. Almost every person who has ever lived on the earth is assured salvation from the second death.”
I could go on forever, I will try to move on:
Didn’t you say you were from Colorado?
Yes, I am sorry. The whole – Californian related paragraphs were in “ “ , but I did not do a very good job in making the quote more distinct. My apologies, this was all a quote from an actual LDS person living in California during the campaigning for Adm. # 8. I apologize for the confusion. There was no campaigning here, just what I observed on the national news…surprisingly NEVER in church, not once. (This may not be the case in California, I have no idea.) I have no way of proving that my church did not contribute to getting the thing on the ballot, I know that the headquarters gave money to the opposition of it, but not tons of money. No more than Hollywood celebrities who are gay, and support gay rights could have contributed to their causes I am sure. That’s beyond the point though, just something to think about. I’m not clear on how politics work, I don’t fully understand the journey that was taken to get the thing on the ballot, but I do think that people can use their own opinions and judgments including their religious views to make decisions once it is on the ballot. It would be hard not to, I don’t think anyone can achieve separation of person and religion, but I agree with you on religion and state, I hope this does go to the Supreme Court, it is not a religious matter but a civil one.
Then, ask yourself this: What would LDS parents say to their LDS child if he or she informed them they wanted to marry a Catholic? Or even, a Jew? Would they approve? And if they did approve, would other LDS members approve? Would that mixed religion couple be able to marry in an LDS church?
This is going to differ per family I suppose. Perhaps I just have an AWESOME LDS family. This also hits close to home. I RARELY date other Mormon boys, and I have never had a serious relationship with one. I have however had a very serious 2 year relationship with an atheist who eventually converted on his own accord and went on a mission and has a very happy LDS family of his own now, I had a 3 year relationship with a Baptist who drug me to his church so I drug him to my church (a little religious tug-of-war) and he converted, he loved that he never heard an ill word spoken of any other group at our church, not the case at his. The Baptists mother was very angry, forbade him to join, kicked him out of her home, and disowned him. It was a very sad and hurtful time, and she blamed me 100%, happy ending though, she got over it after 18 months and everything is at a better understanding and acceptance now. Here is where it starts to be less fortunate for me, I fell in love, hard, with a non-denominational man during college, and I just thought that life could not get any better. My parents were so happy to finally see me that happy, and I thought I really found the “one.” I confronted my parents about the possibility of marriage and they agreed that being happy was # 1, and that our religious differences should not be part of that decision. Long story short, his preacher father did not agree with my parents, and forbade him to have anything to do with me. This time, things didn’t go as well, the man my heart fell for cast me out, and I haven’t seen or heard from him for years. It still hurts a little, but has dulled substantially. Through my mixed assorted affairs with non-LDS men, I have never felt ostracized or looked down on at my church. The men and women there seem to recognize that I have a very open heart. As far as marrying in an LDS church, that is no problem mixed denomination. It is the LDS temple where you are correct, it would not be allowed, the temple is where we believe that we can be sealed to our spouse for eternity, and it is exclusive. But, I suppose your non-LDS spouse wouldn’t hold that belief system anyway, so why should they care?
Is it not part of your religion to do good works?
We believe that we should strive to live a life that follows the life of Jesus Christ as closely as we possibly can. So, yes, good works is part of that since Jesus Christ was a servant to all man kind. It was part of the other persons quote, I think the point was that it seems that, not just our group, all groups, seem to get lots of attention if the media finds that it will be negative attention. But, no attention if it is something positive the group has done. That was all I meant by including it.
By putting religious laws into our Constitution, we will have religious wars. You might think you are protecting your rights to worship as you see fit by putting this law in place, but you are doing just the opposite.
I am sorry that I missed this point the first read of your blog, I think that I misinterpreted it because I was already on a role of feeling persecuted yesterday. I understand what you were thinking, and I agree with you. This is probably most likely the case, and people should be more careful with their actions, they might just get what they wish for.
I have also noticed that replies to your post are beginning to pop the word “Polygamy” And I want to also be sure to defend the LDS from having any sort of relation to that disgusting practice. Polygamy should NEVER be allowed by any constitution (my opinion,) it is a disgusting practice, and the nut cases who think that it is o.k. have only proven to create breeding ground of child abuse and disgrace for the human race. The LDS church would x-communicate anyone who performs this practice, the church has not allowed the practice since 1890, but still are subjected to embarrassment that it ever was practiced. Although, historically, the large majority of members at the beginning of the church did not practice it, and those who did usually only had two wives. (No different than most of the leaders of this country who have a wife and commit adultery I suppose?) People who still practice this barbaric act are not LDS, they belong to a radical group which call themselves Mormon because they broke off from the LDS church when Joseph Smith founder of the church, was murdered and martyred. They are not LDS, they do not recognize any of our church leaders, they have their own head of the church and it has nothing to do with our world wide organization/religion. People often do not understand the separation. I just wanted to make sure that this was not confusing for anyone.
This is far too long I am sure, I apologize for taking up all this room on your blog comments. Hopefully VOX is full of all sorts of room. J I hope that I have not offended your views or those of anyone else. I want to assure you that I have love and respect for all religions and peoples. My only wish is that they also respect my religion, it is a hard one to have because it is so misunderstood and it seems to be a favorite for criticism. I hope that I will have much happier comments in the future. I really do enjoy your blog, it is always well thought out and has become one of my favorites to read. Perhaps we will be friends after this, I hope my convictions do not come across too strongly. Religion does seem to boil up emotions from all.
Again, with huge amounts of respect and God be with you (which ever God is yours,)
Kristen
P.S. I am falling for another non-LDS man, when will I learn? J
The LDS church is of course, a recognised. legitimate religion, not a cult and has indeed doen some great things. That's true, Kristen.
Dear Kristen, There is NO QUESTION that we can be friends. My answer is empahtically "yes." An offer of freidnship is not one I take lightly and I appreciatre it. This was a lovely note and I enjoyed reading it. Nonsense that it was too long. Not at all.
I reread my post and realised for the seconde time, I should have worded it more carefully. It would seem to someone who loves the LDS church as you do that I was criticising only Mormons. I'm not, nor am I cristicising religious people or peole who want ot beling to religious organisations. My post was written too hastily. I odnlt know why, I feel I have an obligation to write at least once every two weeks, to answer on my neighbours' blogs as often as I can, because I think I have made some real friend here, and no matter how busy we get, we shouldn't ignore our friends.Because I didn;t want to do that, i wrote this post miuch faster than I shoud have and psoted it faster,w ithout rereading it c arefully. Ordinarily, ittakes me at least four hours to write and post. I tried to do this one more quickly and as a result, it wasn;t written as well.
Blogging on VOX has been a learning experience for me. I have learned about other countries in which some of my new friends live and now, other religions.Thank you for taking the time to tell me so many things about your life and the church you love. I'm glad you are happy there. I want to draw your attention to a few of your passages, though:
Long story short, his preacher father did not agree with my parents, and forbade him to have anything to do with me. This time, things didn’t go as well, the man my heart fell for cast me out, and I haven’t seen or heard from him for years.
and this one:
As far as marrying in an LDS church, that is no problem mixed denomination. It is the LDS temple where you are correct, it would not be allowed, the temple is where we believe that we can be sealed to our spouse for eternity, and it is exclusive. But, I suppose your non-LDS spouse wouldn’t hold that belief system anyway, so why should they care?
These are two examples of, "Sorry but you are just not good enough for my God." That's where the trouble starts, first with hurt feelings, feelings of feeling inferior, which eventually become feelings of anger and revenge.
That's what this religious exclusivity leads to. That is what I find abhorrent. No matter what, no one can ever convince me that a truly loving ,benevolent God, who created ALL of us would want individual groups of people to do that to each other.Many times in my life I have felt excluded and on the outside of an exclusiv e group that was looking down on me. I learned to make my own way in life, to form my own group of one, where people were always welcome to join me, without ostracising another. But experiencing it firsthadn when I was growing up and when I was married to my husband who never quite accepted me even though he married me, because I did not have his same background, always made me feel like I had to prove something to him. Our relationship was never equal. In many organisations, there is 'outside' and 'inside.'
And i wil lnever forget what my son said to me when he was fousr-year-old when I had to explain racism, sexism and religious discrimination to him, because he'd been witness to a racial slur promunced by his favourite uncle. He looked at me in astonishment and said, "Do you mean that people only like one kind of person? Thats like wanting only one kind of flower in your garden."
And that was sai dto me by a FOUR year old.
I really do think this sort of exclusivity and superiority is at the root of all human suffering. I do believe it is evil's way ofturning somethign that should be good (religion and worship) into a powerful weapon of human destruction.
But that's not to say that I don't believe in a benevolent Supreme Being, or that that Being might have a purpsoe for us all. I just wish we could discover it together. If we could take all the money and time and life we've spent on wars, just think how much farther people would be able to get in what churches call 'God's work" To me, it's people's work, Kristen, or at least it should lbe. If some of us want to do it in God's name rather than our own, that's fine, too. But uunder every circumstance, it should include every individidual in the world, Christian or non, straight or gay.
You sound like a lovely person and I'm really sorry I upset you with my post. I have to go back to writing more carefully, even if I can't write as often. (if you look you'll se I changed the wroding a bit to make it clearer, I hope)
That;s a lovely vote of confidence, CC,and I so thank you for it, but clearly I missed that mark with this post. My point was missed entirely and I need to be more careful when I write. Lesson learned. (But thank you. It is my intention to promote the atmosphere you describe here at my blog)
What I like about this comment is that it doesn't point fingers, It just lays out the facts. It's always a breath of fresh air when you summarise the things I'm trying to say and add your own deep wisdom and wit to them. Maybe we shoudl collarborate? We have to work out a deal. ; )
I've always believed that both religion and government function best when they each do not meddle in the concerns of the other.Concerning the Mormons, I think their stance against same-sex marriage is ironic, considering that the US government forced the LDS church to give up polygyny in 1890, as a pre-requisite to Utah becoming a state.Perhaps if the US had allowed polygyny and other forms of polygamy to remain legal and aboveboard, we'd not be seeing these renegade Mormon groups forcing underage girls to marry old men, as the government could have applied the same rules to such marriages as they do to monogamous ones (consenting adults only).One would think the Mormons would be especially sensitive to marriage discrimination, but apparently this isn't the case.
It seems that the Mormon church's inhumanity to their fellow man is reaping its own reward. From the dim, dark past, when I believed religious dogma, I seem to recall something about "Reap what you sow". Perhaps the Mormons, and other religions of a similar mindset, may care to reflect on that bit of sage advice. They don't seem to have any trouble finding something there to justify bigotry.
Google Lysander Spooner. I think he was an early Martian explorer himself….
Individual Anarchism they call it…Martian law I say 🙂
Way I see it there should be very little "law" telling me how to live, or anyone else.
If the theoretical 3 husbands and 6 wives like to all be in a civil union together, then I see no problem with it. And frankly if anyone else has a problem with it it's THEIR problem. Consenting adults can do what they like. Personally i object to them forcefully TELLING me what they get up to and then telling me it's NORMAL….when it clearly is not. Normal being (depending onyour interpretation of the word) either the average behaviour of all humans OR the minimum behaviour required to be considered an objective, just, thinking person we could all comfortably trust with say the big red button that fires all the nuclear missiles. In the case of the second meaning of the word (how *I* use it) the only normal people on your planet are resident aliens, like me and perhaps some odd freak human in a cave in tibet or somewhere equally forsaken.
So…if behind the privacy of your bedroom door you like to shove bucket-loads of golf-balls up you ass…great for you. But stop trying to convince the world it's "normal" It is not. you are fucking freak and besides you're liable to upset golfers, who know very well golf balls are designed for something else.
Now, we martians have many sexual kinks, and we are very comfortable with them, but we don't go around telling the world it's "normal". Similarly, I really see no reason why it should be accepted as "normal" that certain men like to have sex with other men (or women with women) or whatever….homosexuality is by biological default a deviation from the norm. And it will pretty much always be such. Personally it really doesn't bug me what people do sexually as long as it's amongst consenting adults, I again really do not see how it is ANY of my business. And as long as it doesn't affect their ability to do a job, or behave ethically I don't see how it's relevant.
I do object to say a gay waiter being so gay and so hung up on trying to get a "reaction" out of me by being flamboyantly gay that he fucks up my order 3 times, but then I would object just as much to a heterosexual female waitress being such a nympho-slut that she similarly fucks up my order 3 times while trying to impress on me her sexuality. Unless she was hot of course. But then I might just skip dinner and fuck her instead so it wouldn't affect my order….see? All logical. Technically she'd still be a shit waitress though, and would deserve being fired.
I value this blog so much for the intelligent discourse that it provokes. That said, I am sorry to see comments like the last one from "G". Surely your point can be made without the lead pipe examples. There are so many places for that type of response; this isn't one of them.
Perhaps if the US had allowed polygyny and other forms of polygamy to remain legal and aboveboard, we'd not be seeing these renegade Mormon groups forcing underage girls to marry old men, as the government could have applied the same rules to such marriages as they do to monogamous ones (consenting adults only).
I've wondered about this myself, L. There are so many things to wonder about regarding law and religion. I think this is what ahppens when laws ar emade in haste and not carefully considered. Thank you for yur thoughts. They inspire much thought, as usual.
From Wiki- Lysander Spooner – "He believed that the price of borrowing capital could be brought down by competition of lenders if the government de-regulated banking and money. This he believed would stimulate entrepreneurship"
Intriguing idea in theory, until we actually did it and then it brought down the economy. All these ideas ar egood on paper if we can assume noone will take advantage of them.
I think. Hmmm. I have to read more about him, and get back to you.
They don't seem to have any trouble finding something there to justify bigotry.
Unfortunately this is all too true. It makes me sad, and I always wonder, if there is a Supreme Being, what that Being makes of that. I really do believe the followers, if not the creators of religious dogma, are being duped. On the other hand, I also think if their religions told them that homosexuality was not a sin, they would all do a 180 degree turn. Hence the term "follower."
Hi Decorina. I very much appreciate the " intelligent discourse " comment. But let me tell you about G, in case you haven't read his blog. He's very intelligent, has a heart of gold, but is indeed a bit 'vivid' in his discourse.
We forgive it, because you see, he is a Martian, or so he has explained to us. And Martians use terms like "hot" "nympho-slut" and "f*ck" to imply the very opposite of what they'd mean if Earthmen used them. In Martian talk, those words signify the utmost respect for women and the sex act.
Martians are also, believe it or not, staunch supporters of civil liberties for all, and they express their support, in terminology like this—that all people, gay or straight, should be able to stick anything up their backsides they so wish. You see? The more crude the example, the more vehement the support.
How do I know this? Well, if you visit G's blog, you'll see I actually had the privilege of gaining a 'crew pass' on G's spaceship. It was a delightful and illuminating experience, though a bit of culture shock. I now can speak a little bit of Martian and understand that G meant well by these words.He'd feel bad if he thought he'd offended any one, I'm sure.
But it is indeed difficult for any Earth female to know this, based on the way he expressed himself here.
; )
Well, thanks for the, um, information about G. I felt that I'd been bludgeoned after reading his post, and I'll take your word for his actual "Martian" meaning. He might want to keep in mind that all of us not privy to his viewpoint and use of our language are prone to misunderstanding.
It makes me sad, and I always wonder, if there is a Supreme Being, what that Being makes of that."I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours, but I think that god's got a sick sense of humour, and when I die I expect to find him laughing." – Depeche Mode, Blasphemous Rumours.
The particular point I use Lysander as a benchmark for is his essay Natural Law.
It pretty much fits my own ideas of Law, politics and Justice. Not bad considering it's 10 pages of A4 paper if printed.
As for the bankers bringing down the world economy…well…see the problem is that if you're going to only accept part of his theories then they will not work. However if you accept all of them…for example, the one where everyone has a right to make their own justice… well… bankers would be a bit more cautios. As would politicians. Assassination politics (another essay, this one by Jim Bell – who was jailed shortly after writing it for something else I think) is also "extreme" yet, the premise is not unsound…that is…make people accountable.
Do you think there would be ANY wars if the leaders of each of the warring countries had to lead his men on foot whilst wearing bright red and be at the front of the infantry ? Or in the front of the lead fighter jet plane again in a bright red plane? Somehow I just don't see George and Tony doing that….
Do you think there would be ANY wars if the leaders of each of the warring countries had to lead his men on foot whilst wearing bright red and be at the front of the infantry ?Probably not, but that might to a shortage of virgins in paradise.
…lead to a shortage…
It's all for the best. Suicide bombers are all deep-seated homosexuals deep down, and virgins, so it works out.
(I'm curious to see how many people this comment will outrage 🙂 )
hahahah!
Well, you certainly Earned that crew pass. Hell i think you deserve a promotion now! Very clever parsing of Martian thought… I never bothered to try to make it make sense for humans…way I see it is that by ramming their head full-speed into a wall it generally forces them to face some harsh facts.
Of course they invariably forget to say "thank you" but such are humans 🙂
Crudity is not used just for crudity's sake. It forces people to realise what they are actually saying. Because speaking politely doesn't do it with the primitive hominids…oh they all pay lip service to it, but to test their honesty just make them emote a bit and all their "sound reasoning" goes out the window.
Well anyway, you may be the first human to attempt to translate Martian. Kind of like the rosetta stone ! I'm very impressed.
xx
G.
You'll find my sentences make perfect logical sense if you use the dictionary definition of them too. Though that might not always be exactly how I use them. As with any discourse, familiarity brings clarity, but in any case, use a dictionary and you'll still be fine in interpreting what I mean.
And if the graphical nature of the language offends then just avoid reading anything I write. You have that choice available you know…
Miss Hope, I am interested in your comments on this posting. I am sincerely pleased for you that you have found a religion with which you are comfortable. I hope that you remain comfortable in your faith, and have no desire, on any level, to call into question your beliefs. But I think it is fair to clarify what may have been an unconsciously misleading statement you made about Mormon beliefs.
It is true that Mormons believe that heaven is possible for all, even those who are not Mormons. What you fail to mention is that the Mormon conception of heaven is different from the conception of heaven that most Christians might have. Heaven is stratified in Mormon belief. In other words, only righteous Mormons get into the Celestian level of heaven. So, for example, your theoretical non-Morman husband, at least initially, would not be eligible for admittance to Celestial Heaven, having not met the requirements thereof. And your own status in heaven would be damaged by having not been married in the Temple and sealed for eternity. So, while your statement about heaven was technically accurate, it was perhaps inadvertantly misleading.
On the polygamy front, you are correct. The Mormon church condemns polygamy, and excommunicates those who practice it. Again, however, that is not the whole story. The edicts from the church against polygamy have never risen to the level of Prophecy. On that level, polygamy is still the word of God, as expressed through Joseph Smith Junior. The proclamation against polygamy does not rise to that level, and rests on the basis of obedience to civil authority. If the United States, which still represents the home of the majority of Mormons, were to legalize polygamy, there is no bar in church prophecy to prevent a prophet from rescinding the edicts against polygamy. What I have seen happen is men whose wives sealed with them in the temple have passed away may marry another Mormon woman, also sealed in the temple. There is certainly no bar in Heaven against having several wives.
I only make these points in order to clarify that Patricia, in using LDS as an allegory for how Satan may use religion as a wedge to promote evil, is speaking a greater truth, which is not diminished by her technical innacuracies.
Now, on the role of the LDS on Proposition 8, I understand how you may feel the church is being unfairly singled out for criticism. Certainly, on the basis of population, you have a point. The Catholic church numbers over 11 million in California, and its hierarchy was adamantly in favor or Proposition 8. I am certain that made a difference in the outcome. I have expressed that sentiment on a couple of the progressive blog sites I visit from time to time. (I have also defended African Americans on this score. There was one highly misleading exit poll from CNN which claimed that 70% of AAs voted for Propostiion 8. That figure cannot be accurate, if one simply applies statistical logic.)
But politics, sadly, currently exists in a form, in this country, in which money is often a determining factor in success or failure. And the amount of money donated to the pro-Prop 8 forces came disproportionately from LDS sources. Current estimates are that more than three-quarters of the money which was donated came from LDS members and/or churches. So, again, even if you are correct that Mormon voters could not have carried Prop 8, in and of themselves, certainly the ad and advocacy efforts paid for by church members was a key factor in a close electoral decision.
Kristen, I understand, and even applaud your willingness to stand up for your religion. I have no desire to call into question any of your beliefs,which may flow from your understanding of your faith. Indeed, I have ancestors of Mormon faith, on my mother's side, going back to the very early days of the church in New York. My great-grandmother's geneaology takes us back, in some branches, nearly two thousand years. While I am not a member of your church, neither am I one who would denigrate it. Indeed, most Mormons I have know are people whom I admire and respect.
But none of that changes my agreement with the fundamental point of Patricia's allegory. Namely, that when secular believers try to impose their beliefs in contradiction to the non-secular tenets of this country, they unwittingly create conditions which make the triumph of chaos more likely. Just look at the persecution of Latter Day Saints in history. As someone who has done archaelogical work at Nauvoo, and who knows someone who did that work at Haun's Mill, I am acutely aware of the danger to believers posed by the self-righteous. This is a civil liberty issue. On that level, Proposition 8 is an abomination which makes less sturdy the foundation upon which all believers in this country rely. And, in the metaphorical sense explored by Patricia here, that is playing with fire.
You've brought to mind another story by Pär Lagerkvist, The Dwarf (At least, I think it was that one—I'm off my mark this week) where it's discovered that God is an old, feeble man, who is shovelling coal in a furnace. And when man asks him about all the flaws , trumoil that exisist, he replies, "I'm doing the best that I can."
An even more stunning thought than a righteous God, or an omnipotent God, or perhaps no God, is a God who has every human failing we have, I think…
L, this is without a doubt, the most extraordinary piece ever written on my blog. When your parents come over, I'm showing them this. In fact, I'm playing 'catch up' this week and hope to be contacting them. I can't wait to meet them.
Not bad considering it's 10 pages of A4 paper if printed.
Did you mean your theory or Spooner's? I sure as hell would like to read yours…
His: http://www.panarchy.org/spooner/law.1882.html
Mine would probably be shorter and involve my zap gun 🙂
Great book. Disturbing, but great.
You know the funny part? If you are anything like me, you will now notice G's comments everywhere you look and zoom right onto them. I say this because there was once a VOXer who annoyed me no end with his sarcastic, belittling attitude.It wasn't what he said , but how he spoke to people that really got my goat. Sure enough, every time I saw that name, I'd just have to read what he wrote. Why do I do that to myself, I wonder? My husband's favourite expression is "Just ignore it." And he does! I'm so trying to take a page out of his book.
Okay, I know I probably shouldn't encourage you, but I can't resist, since I've always been a Mae West fan – Does 'zap gun' mean what I think it means in Martian? ; )
Ummm..probably not. Zap gun is a blaster that vaporizes huge chunks of whatever it hits. Like in Star Wars.
You're thinking about another type of zap aren't ya….dirty, dirty mind… 🙂
(sigh) I guess so. Blame my Earthling upbringing….
wow. great post. and really great comments here. there's nothing here i can add (since i'm late in the game) but the word "cult" has such a negative connotation. i feel bad for the one lady up there who got upset about the word "cult" being used, but by definition, there are many, many religions that are actually "cults." including my parents religion (seventh-day adventist)… anyway, great thought-provoking post and comments. thanks, patricia. 🙂
"late in the game?' The party doesn't start until you get here, girl. 'Cult' does have a negative connotation, because most people think of 'The Moonies' or the People's Temple when they think of it. BTW- did you know tomorrow marks the 30th anniversary of that Jim Jones dissater? I was watching last night on CNN. Can't believe it was already 30 years ago.
If you read the fantasy series named GOR you would know that is the only redeeming quality of Earth…Earthling women make the best slave-girls…they have orgasms pretty much regardless of who's doing them 🙂
(That is Aliens doing them…. many Earth males fail miserably in this regard if Earth females are to be believed…and I DO believe them in this…)
I'm thinking that G is actually a Muggle…
(giggle) Good One, but careful. He might zap gun you……
; )
Ancora ~
You are a very elegant writter, thank you for the quiet and poised respect that you were able to dicuss the LDS religion on Mrs. Davis' blog. Your points are very accurate, but I think many of the LDS beliefs leave room for personal testimony and reflextion on areas of Heavenly Fathers plan for us, and how exactly it all works. For example ~ Yes, we do believe that there are three different kingdoms of Heaven, signifing levels of glory. The Celestial, Terrestrial, and the Telestial.
1 Corinthians 15: 40-42
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
Mrs Davis,
After a day of quiet reflexion and a break from all of the discussion I feel more relaxed to post to your last response. Sometimes discussion becomes so heated (even when they are respectful like ours) that it feels like I just run into a brick wall and need to stop, step back, and see the big picture.
I want you to know how much I appreciate your open mind and huge heart, which allowed you to discuss your blog with me with class and respect. I did not mean to turn your satanic satire into a huge discussion on what makes the LDS religion special and wonderful. The majority of the posts from fellow bloggers and yourself have been accepting and enlightening.
I have also been able to gain an understanding on why people are so upest at us. I am dissapointed that our usually neutral church chose to fight in the Prop 8 battle, it is embarassing for myself and other members I have talked with. We should have stayed out of it. However, we did not, and I understand that good people were hurt by our support. I hope, at most, readers of this blog can be dissapointed with the church as a whole, but recognize all the good people of the LDS faith who did not chose to end the rights of homosexual marriage. There are some of us, I am sure a lot more than people think, that do not feel it was our place to make that sort of decision.
Thank you again for your sweet acceptance and understanding. I believe you are a kindred spirit. It would have been so easy for you to just tell me it is your blog and to go get a life. I think all of us can learn something from you,
Thank you.
Kristen
In all honesty and fairness Kristen, the accolades go to YOU in this discussion. I applaud your open mind and heart. It is rare that someone who is dedicated to a particular church or mindset can say, "we made a mistake." And I feel that that takes not only courage, but confidence and also the realistic idea that anything we love, whether a religion, or a human being, is not going to ever be as perfect as we would like. But that doesn't mean we cannot still love them. In my book there is a whole section on the two religions I know- Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy. Of course I am satirical in my discussions and blunt in my criticisms of them. I always try to make people laugh, because I think we feel it's safer and it helps us keep an open mind, so we can think. But despite my criticisms of organized religion, I stilll love to go into a church or even any other religious place of worship and sit there, meditate and talk to God. (Even though my idea of God is my own and very different than what any religion I've foind teaches.) Nonetheless, I go and I get benefit from it. I know another young lady who is far more dedicated to a religious organization than I, and yet she has the same courage you have to speak out about the things she feels need reexamining in her religion. She will never leave her religion because she is occasionally frustrated with some aspects on it, but she works at positive change from within. That's how things will change for the better, that's how religions will conquer evil. By standing up from within their churches, synagogues, mosques, etc, and saying "No,we think our religion is wrong in this particular issue." The religious leaders probably won't like that very much for the most part, yet there will be many religious leaders who will get behind it and support the change.
That's always been my disagreement with people who don't support organized religion and see it as a force of evil in the world.It's not the religion per say that causes the problem. It's the people from within who feel they must only obey and agree with everything their religions state. It doesn't have to be that way, and many tiems in the past people have made positive changes from within.
I think if everyone in every religious organization was like you and my dear friend and fellow wrtier, Lindsey, (who's link I've just given you) organised religion would be not only a powerful force, but a completely wonderful force.
Keep that warm, loving spirit, that open, intelligent mind. Thank you for your thoughts and your kindness to everyone here.
I am dissapointed that our usually neutral church chose to fight in the Prop 8 battle, it is embarassing for myself and other members I have talked with.
That's the problem. It's not just Prop 8, although that's quite enough, thank you. Mormons have an officially documented history of vicious hatred and bigotry towards gay people and have been plotting against their equality for at least a decade as evidenced by this internal memo from the Mormon Church dated March 4, 1997. ABC News filed a news report here. To present your "church" as "usually neutral" is disingenuous, to put it mildly, and a bold faced lie, to be blunt.
The question you, and all Mormons, need to ask yourself is why would you choose to align yourself with an organization that has a documented history of hatred and discrimination?
You know, I understand your passion on this. I even agree with it. But don't assume that everyone has all of the information that you have. That same rant edited to assume she doesn't understand or know all the facts that you do might actually be useful.
Sometimes it is better to educate than to agitate.
I really have to agree with you. Ancora. This is such an important issue that it's much better to assume the best rather than the worst, only because people really can't listen when they are on the defensive. I speak from personal experience,Madonna. In my personal relationships,(husband, five sons) if I'm frustrated and angry, it only serves to get everybody's back up. It's very clear that Kristen did not know the extent of her church's involvment and she has been courageous enough to admit that as well as that she doesn't agree with it. Start from that premise and you might find you get alot further. And keep in mind, that I am just as upset about this issue as anyone, or else I wouldn't have written the post. In fact, your anger is an example of what this type of law has generated, which is exactly the point I was trying to make. Don't fall into the trap. Point out what you know,with gentleness rather than anger and let's all learn something, or be puppets 'for the bad guys' at the mercy of our emotions.
Madonna,
I am so very sorry that you are dealing with such angry emotions. I think that it is important to step back and realize a few things in this very delicate situation:
1. The Mormon Church, rather, ALL Christian churches, are not "PLOTTING" anything. The clean cut black and white of it is; these are Bible Studying, God fearing groups who have a firm belief that acting on homosexual feelings by engaging in same gender sex, is comitting a sin. Period. This does not make it right or wrong, it is just where the religous groups that were against Prop 8 are comeing from.
2. The group of people who support Gay Marriage as a civil right do not think acting on homosexual feelings commits sin, or they think it is a sin, but they aren't committing it…so they don't care and think that gay's should be able to do whatever they want.
As my two new dear friends above have stood up for me by mentioning, I do recognize that my Church was wrong in becoming politically and financially involved. It is very sad that the Church just didn't stay out of it and let their members make their own political decisions. I don't agree, I am sure there are others who do not agree. You cannot stick everyone who belongs to an organization in the same "Frame of Mind" box. Religion is not a one size fits all.
I think that you would be much more constructive by getting involved with lobbying for an appeal to the Supreme Court on the decision made this November, it seems to be something you have a lot of passion for. And it might make you feel better than getting outraged at something you cannot change, and then sitting around attacking whomever you feel is the most responsible.
This quote from Goucho Marx came into my mind after I read your post, I just love it and I hope that it will help you through this difficult time:
"I, not events, have the power to make me happy or unhappy today. I can choose which it will be. Yesterday is dead, tomorrow hasn't arrived yet. I just have one day, today, and I'm going to be happy in it."
This was truely a great reply, thank you so much. I especially loved the part that you recognize that you have your own personal opinion of God, and that it is very different than anything you've found in religious teachings. This really made me think! Shouldn't it be that way for everybody? I think that it is truely great, your different opinion means that you truely have your own special relationship with God. A special relationship that is so unique that you have been able to get to know him in a way that no one else but you can. It only makes sense to me that you would feel this way, and I want to strive to feel this way for certain as well. It wouldn't make much sense for you and I to meet a person and have the exact same relationship/opinion of him. Thank you for this thought. I feel close to God, but I am going to work on a more personalized relationship with Him. 🙂
I also agree that church members in all churches need to get braver and take a stand on issues, even if it upsets the fruit basket. It is much easier to accomplish things with positive un-biased attitudes, and that needs to be more present in the organizations. I also enjoyed Lindsey's blog, thank you for the link. She seems like she has a very fun attitude and is not afraid to voice her opinion! I'm sure I will start frequenting her blog as well. However, I hope I don't become one of those Blog-Addicts! The intelligent discussions and interesting posts are just too enticing to pass up. Help! (Just Kidding)
Also, I remember reading about your book comeing out a few months ago. Has it been released yet, and where is it available? I love books! How exciting for you, you are truely a wonderful and sucessful role model for women.
Thank you.
Oooh, this has been a contentious post hasn't it? I've never seen a debate on this before that has been conducted in so civilised a manner, without either side getting nasty, it's impressive.
Here in the UK our fervant Christians aren't so vocal as in the US. Whether that's because there aren't so many of them I don't know but they don't have such an influence on policy. We got same sex marriages without too much trouble, sure there were some complaints and a few people lamenting the downfall of society and the end of days but they were very much in the minority, most Christians accepted the idea with good grace and tolerance. I believe the church of England may even accept gay vicars these days but I'd have to check because I'm not 100% sure on that one. I suspect that with the disintegration of order, family and social cohesion in our major cities, the Christians of Britain have decided that they have more important things to concentrate on than whether someone prefers Arthur or Martha.
Amazed at your interaction with Ms Hope.
It's enoughto make me wonder if there is a better way than just zapping annoying humanoids on sight…
Intriguing. Very.
Hi, Kristen,
Sorry I didn't answer this yesterday, I have the most dreadful cold! I knew you would like Lindsey's blog, she is fiesty, just like you! ; ) I long for the day when every church goer speaks out as you two do and the churches put God back into the hands of the congregations and not at the mercy of religious dogma. In fact, Lindsey has just self-published a book, about homosexuality and the church. I am going to be reviewing it soon, but I already know it will be thought-provoking based on what I know about Lindsey,who is also very dedicated to her church, but would like to see some changes.
Speaking of books, thanks you for asking about mine, It's always nice when someone expresses an interest. It is available on all online stores (such as amazon and amazon.uk) and as of November 8 it is also available in retail bookshops, though I am pretty sure you will have to ask most of them to order it for you. I'm not very famous, so my book is no tgoing to be on the stands next to John Grisham's books! His work is a little more popular than mine! ; )
Finally, I agree about blogs being real food for thought. They let one know how people really feel and think, always food for thought.
Thank you for all the time you spent with me, I've enjoyed talking with you.
Thanks very much, G. Seriously. All joking aside, I really enjoy your commentary, It's very deep and intelligent and it means much to me that you enjoyed this posting and the comments.
I suspect that with the disintegration of order, family and social cohesion in our major cities, the Christians of Britain have decided that they have more important things to concentrate on than whether someone prefers Arthur or Martha.
One would really think that'd be the case here, too, but I suspect these things are red herrings to throw people off the scent of the very things they should be concentrating on to make positive changes in our society. Thanks for commenting, Vic.I've got a terrible cold, so I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner.
Good post. "No other type of war we’ve created on earth has created more slaughter, more sin, than a religious war." So true.
Isn't it though? I'm sure we can all list every "religious" war we had to learn about in school. Thanks for commenting, Red Pen.
None of the religious groups have any
clue that they’ve helped to destroy their own religious freedom in the United
States, one of the few places on earth where they were free to worship as
equals. In fact, they’re so blinded to
it, that even if they found this memo, they’d have no idea what in Hell I was
talking about.oh excellent, Patricia – in denying basic constitutional rights to a minority group, they are taking their own freedoms for granted – and in their complacency and self-righteousness, they don't even realize that one day, they may be in danger of losing their liberties and who will come to their rescue? – hmmm
they may be in danger of losing their liberties and who will come to their rescue? – hmmm
Wow. Never thought of that part. Scary. We'd be right back where we started from in this country.
I have a terrible cold, I shoudl\\ld be resting. Why am I on this computer??
why are you on this computer? for the same reason, i'm on it when i should be sleeping – we can't help it!!! – in to reply to a comment, then we end up sucked into the black hole of the internet – it's like the black hole of Long's – i disappear into that drug store for one tube of lip gloss and come out later, dazed and confused carrying some batteries, a pair of earrings, a hair thingy, and a bag of cheetos – lol!
p.s. um, yes, you think of all kinds of scary things when you're supposed to be asleep!p.s.2. i hope you have plenty of aloe and menthol tissues! get better – hugs!
Yep. And don't forget some sort of patchouli oil, a magazine you didn't need, a card for a birthday that won't happen for a month (which you promptly forget you bought) and vanilla vodka on sale.
Actually, I do have a nightmare story to tell you. You and all the other writers at HS will be getting an email soon…..
p.s.3 i'd like to also add that i think according to my Webster's online dictionary, any and every religion could be defined as a cult (and not necessarily in a negative way)cult Pronunciation:
\ˈkəlt\
Function:noun Usage:often attributive Etymology:French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate
— more at wheelDate:1617
1: formal religious veneration : worship2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual
; also : its body of adherents3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious
; also : its body of adherents4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book)
; especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion(i'm going to sleep now, i swear)
Good job. Great comment. Now go to bed and I, too, will get off the internet for the rest of the afternoon!
You are most welcome kind lady.
Being able to discern that much is why I behave as I do mostly. Sorts the people who actually have a brain from those who merely pay lip service to being that whole 2% "better" than chimps.
Is that it? Just two percent? Shouldn't surprise me….
Hope you get to feeling better, there are not many viruses that are worse than fighting off a cold! Keep warm and well rested. 🙂
Oooh nasty, colds are hideous! Get well soon xxx
We share more than 98% of our DNA with chimps. Personally I think for humans it's 99.999999998765%….
This is like a Screwtape Letter for the 21st century, only from the Horned One himself, not some lackey. Nice work."Their smug religious superiority will crack their veneer of righteousness."Love the wording. I can see Lucifer stroking his fine beard as he says it. 🙂 I just presented the following quote at paikea's VOX, but I think it fits right in here, as well:"With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good
things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do
evil things, that takes religion."–Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in PhysicsOh, and just so you know, I totally picked up on your use of "intelligently designed" and assume the sardonic nick was intentional. You must know by now how much I love that sort of thing.
Actually the 'intelligently designed' was about the only writing on this particular piece that I liked. I rushed it because I was angry about Prop 8 and really wanted to make a point. It has its many flaws. But thanks, K. It's always nice to get a compliment from you, as I admire your writing so much.
To be fair, I could effortlessly tear apart any one of my own posts from a technical standpoint, especially when I've been popping them off the top of my head. The tack and tone of this piece are what I enjoyed so much. The "letter from the devil" thing was done long before CS Lewis dabbled with it and yet he came up with something fresh which indicated it still worked as a satirical medium. This post suggests the same, and I've no doubt that if you took the time to clean it up, it could end up as one of your favorite pieces of writing.
One of the things I love about being part of the writing community is that one writer can see something in another's work that he or she cannot see. And yet, be respectful enough with their critique, because we all know what goes into our writing. That makes it not hurtful, but helpful. I love the feedback I get from you and others. Thanks. I will revisit this piece, but you know what? I hope I don't have to, because I wish more than anything for the sake of the entire country that Prop 8 is repealled. Natasha brought up a good point in one of her comments here, that if religious groups start to feel oppressed, who will come to their rescue? The way things are going, with us teetering on the edge of civil rights abolishment,not many will feel inclined to, saying that get what they deserve, but that will be a free fall for us all.
For the record im not commenting on prop 8, I think its a subject normal people go beserk on. Does anybody remember the mormon church buying millions of dollars of text that put the mormons in a bad light,they were trying to buy it all up so the treachery of mormon history wouldn't get out in the mainstream of being on the permanent record. The brilliant forger who sold the mormons the fake scripts was a genius and had a problem with the mormons,the mormons thought they were real and wanted to hide all of them from the public,is that a trustworthly religion who goes out of its way to hide it from the masses. I have been to almost every religious gathering,weather its holding rattle snakes ready to bite the holders who say the won't get medical attention if bitten to being aroung 50 people putting there hands on me trying to banish the devil out of my body. Yes I believe in an afterlife but for the life of me I could not pick one religion I would be comfortable with,they all have weird beliefs I don't agree with,I pray everynight and until I find a sane religion ill keep the god or higher power at night in my bed, When my grandfather died less than a month ago 7 different religions went to my mother asking for donations,I guess thats why when my grandpa died 7 years ago he just wanted his loved ones around his gravesite,but that still didn't stop the pastors coming over to his apartment trying to talk my dad into giving to there church,in my opinion they were all vultures,Hitting a family at there darkest moment,hell with most of them.
I loved this comment. I know how much you loved your grandfather and I remember what you said about seeing him after he died. We have some of the same religious beliefs, I think. Well, I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving, C. I waited a few days to write another blog because some of my friends were devastated by what happened in India, but today I'm writing something happy and lighthearted for a change and I will post it tomorrow. : )
These Mormon thugs are relentless.